Femininity, Fire & the Art of Becoming with Jessie Sobool
Introductory Highlights
My beautiful other half the other day said something, “You can’t white-knuckle creativity.” Yeah. And I think that’s the problem, is, like, when the deadline becomes a monster that’s looming, that’s when it really becomes the antithesis of creation. Then it, then it sort of just becomes a compression of experience rather than this beautiful flourishing growth of exploration and curiosity.
My experience of creativity is in how important it is in the microcosm, in the little things that we do. It doesn’t have to be big or grand or belong to something, , massive , or cultural, , but that we have access to it ourselves on a regular basis every day, and just in the small things that we do.
I think it’s the, the agony and the ache and the ecstasy and the bliss all marrying together for me, and being able to experience the world and have it move through me and not block it off.
And I think that’s the times when my creativity’s shines the brightest, is when I’m like, “I am a participant in this experience.”
Introducing the conversation on creativity
What is The Peri Moon Podcast episode about?
Welcome to The Peri Moon Podcast. I am Nelle Tamar- Manuel, and today I’m back with Cozy Jess, and I’m so excited. I love hanging out with you so much. Thank you for returning, Jess. That’s so kind. I’m so excited to be here. I ha- I enjoyed myself so much last time, and I feel like we were just getting started.
And I would like to pat us on the backs for, you know, keeping it down to- … however many minutes we talked for. So I think we’re doing a great job. I love that. Yeah, and I- we talk, so I just don’t… I feel like the, the well is v- very, very infinite with us as far as our chats go. It’s very beautiful. And whatever medium it is, whether it’s, it’s speaking or, or emails, whatever it may be, I feel like, oh, there’s so much juice and so much meat in there.
So yay, so excited to get to chat to you again today. Um, we were briefly discussing creativity, and I think it’s such a beautiful place to explore. Um, I feel like a lot of women around me and, and definitely in my community are really starting to become more curious about their creativity and how it can show up.
And, and I don’t know whether it’s, you know, just having a little bit more time in their lives or that that, you know, maybe the baby-making creation has been put to the side now, and now it’s like, “Well, what other ways can I use my creative expression in this world?” And I, I think it’s a really, really beautiful and- um, soul affirming way to navigate your life is through creation.
So I would love to chat with you about that if, if that’s something that you feel called to talk about. Absolutely. That’s really the backbone of Yuda by Jessie, which is the name of my business, is… And, and, uh, you know, we’ll fill it out in, in greater colour, uh, within this, but it’s one of my values, is creativity.
And so I would love to explore this in more depth and nuance. Absolutely. Mm. I think I’ve always… Actually, to be honest, I identified as very creative as a child, and then I know that this is a very natural thing to happen. A lot of, um… Around 10, a l- is when kids tend to become a little bit more aware of, “Ooh, that doesn’t look like a horse,” or, you know, they start to become a little bit more critical.
And then that’s the point where a lot of children either really embrace the creative pathway, or they say, “Oh, I’m…” You know, they start comparing themselves to others, and then they start to shut it down. Um, for me, it was… I always identified as creative, but it wasn’t… It was s- so vague and random. My creativity was, you know, it was something that really needed to be cultivated over a lifetime almost.
So for me- Mm … it was like, oh, I’m good at writing, but where does that fit in? You know, it’s my… Most of my work’s, like, contemplative essays. Where does that fit into the world of writing? I can’t make a job of that. Um, and then dance, but it’s like, well, that’s more for me. You know, I was… It was a bit of a struggle trying to find out, what is this thing that’s creativity, you know?
Does it have to fit into a neat box, or is it inherently… You know, is that the purpose of creativity, is it doesn’t fit into a neat box? Um, yeah, so for me, I feel like it’s definitely been such a beautiful lifetime exploration of something that has been- you know, placed upon me. I feel like, you know, my creativity is a gift that I have had bestowed upon me.
It’s not something that I really sought or s- you know, quite often it was something that I’m like, it felt like a burden more than- Mm-hmm … more than anything. Yeah. And now it’s so good to be in this space where I’m like, “I can really, I can write my emails, I can do my podca- you know, I can dance. I can do all of the beautiful things and not have to worry that it, it doesn’t fit into what mainstream would say this is art.”
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Isn’t that… I feel like that’s such a blessing of these more recent generations, is they’ve just cracked that open and been like… ‘Cause, um, as I was, as I step back and sort of re- was reflecting on this theme for today, I was, I was thinking about why this is so important to me personally. And I was remembering an article that I read a long time ago, like I’m talking 20, 25 years ago, and it really, really struck me because it talked about how there was a parallel of when Einstein was coming out with his work on the theory of relativity and the advent of, like, 20th century, um, modern artistic movements like cubism and expressionism.
Mm. And so it was, the article was saying at the same time, science and art sort of became unapproachable for you and me. Most people up until this point could understand the object of an art or understand scientific advancements. And when these things came out, um, most people felt that they couldn’t approach or understand it anymore.
And that is just the generation before me, and so by the time my generation arrived, it was sort of rote and it was just sort of understood now that you can’t fully understand science unless you’re a total genius, and art is also elite as well. And that’s the flavour or energy of the generation before me, and I think that that was, you know, definitely, um, how I received it as well.
But I feel that’s not true or accurate, and so, um, the reclaiming of… And, and so my experience of creativity is in how important it is in the, in the microcosm, in the little things that we do. It doesn’t have to be big or grand or belong to something, um, massive or, or cultural, um, but that we have access to it ourselves on a regular basis every day, and just in the small things that we do.
And so for me, that is really what I appreciate about the younger generations, is they feel more distant from and, and maybe didn’t have, um, those experiences of science and art forefront for them, and are just like, “I can create anything with any medium.” And it’s so exciting and it’s so thrilling to see, and that’s the sort of thing that I try and cultivate, is to not be too dogmatic about it, but to, um, to welcome it in in its, um, most simple, uh, manifestations of it.
And so just back to what you were saying about your experience of it, I feel like, you know, when we were younger, we were sort of told things like, um, long form essays or dance and that can’t be a career. It can’t be this and that coming from that flavour of the previous generation. But now the, there is access to seeing room for all sorts of different creativity and artistic forms as, uh, as, as accessible and, and interesting and, um, and digestible, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, o- out of reach and for, you know, the elite kind of thing.
The connection between science, meaning and art
How are science and creativity actually similar?
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I, I love that you’ve drawn the parallel with science because I do feel like they’re very … I’m both a scientist and an artist. Like, I would say I fit very comfortably into both of those categories, and I feel like for me, they’re so similar. Like, they’re both about curios- like, at their, at their core, they’re both about curiosity and experimentation and trying to make sense and meaning of the world around us.
Like, they, that’s what they both do. The purpose of both of them is to, to understand the world around us, and I feel like both of them have been heavily gatekept. Um, science especially, it’s like, well… And it’s interesting because I come from- My first, uh, so I had an advanced diploma in naturopathy, which was from a more, like, mystery style school.
It was very, very old school naturopathic, a lot of energetics, a lot of, um… Yeah, it’s, it was a lot more of subtle energy work, whereas then when I went on to do my bachelor in c- in health science, it was heavy science. And it, it’s so interesting to be in practice where I’m using things like flower essences or things that are more energetic, or even, even astrology, you know, in, in ways where it’s like, “That’s not proven.
There’s no, you know, double blind random- randomized controlled trial for that.” And it’s like, I get that that’s what science says, but my clinical experience is vastly different. Like, when I sit with people in astrology or when I sit with, when I give people flower essences, I can see the difference. I can see how they’re responding.
I can see their eyes light up like, “Oh, my gosh, yeah, I do tend to do this thing,” or… And it’s really interesting how much we’ve gatekept the science experience, and how as an offshoot I feel like at times people are looking for, you know, that meaning, and they’re looking for, for ways to incorporate meaning.
And I feel like where we’ve gatekept science, that’s where people have been like, “Okay, well, I’ll need to find art. I’ll need to look at TV. I’ll look…” You know, TV shows or, “I’ll, I’ll need to find some sort of art to, to carry forth that meaning,” when it’s like we could actually be making the art ourselves.
If we’re not finding the meaning from, from things, you know, that where we’re initially looking or if that’s not serving us, then we can find, we can make the meaning ourselves from our own art. And, and that’s where it’s so juicy for me is to, like, sit with something that’s not making sense, and to be able to have it move through me in a way that’s like, “Oh, it makes sense to me now, and that’s all that I really need.”
Is there a right way to interpret art?
Can your personal interpretation of literature be wrong?
Amazing. Yeah. I was reflecting on, um, how there were a couple of, of experiences, one in high school and one in university, where I really stood up for myself and stood up in class and was like, “Here’s how I interpret this piece of literature that we’re studying.” And the class was about, like, participating and, and discussing the literature that we were studying.
And being told like in no uncertain terms, uh, “No, that you’re wrong. Like, you’re just totally wrong.” It’s like, um … And I don’t know, I was young, and it was, I can say, a bit humiliating at the time. But even I had the presence of mind to be like, “No, these great minds didn’t think these things to be one thing.
They wanted to incite, um, uh, inspiration, and majesty, and, and perspective.” And I just, I even knew that, like, a- as a young person, um, that telling a teenager, you know, that it does not mean that is probably not what the author was aiming for. Um, and so I just, I agree with you. Like, um, what you’re saying about the, how an individual experiences it differently, and then the exciting part is then what you go on to create from that, and then, and then on like that, like, infinitely.
Like, it’s just a large conversation. Mm. And it’s so exciting to be a part of groups that are doing that together. I think that’s one of the fun things about getting into an art class, or a discussion class, or learning language with other people, but community in general, is to hear … I, I just, I personally love that, is to hear how other people are receiving it and what it lights up for them.
And, and the sort of, you know, watching people, like, make connections about, oh, that thing we were discussing yesterday, or that thing I was doing in the garden or whatever, and like bringing it all together. That, I’m told, is like a higher level of creativity, is getting the space and time to be able to tie all those things together.
Creativity, anxiety and emotional sensitivity
Is there a relationship between creativity and mental health?
Is there something in your life that you, that inspires that sort of connection with your work as well, that like, you know, lends to those sorts of creative sparks and, and, and answers and solutions? Yeah. Um, yeah, but it’s not, it’s not … I don’t know. I have … My whole life I’ve had anxiety and depression.
Like, and it’s been so, such a, a struggle for me. Like, and I’m in a really good place now, and I think it’s just I’ve come- Yeah. I, I, and I don’t know what comes first, the chicken or the egg. If it is the creativity that’s not being quenched that is causing the anxiety and depression, because the times when I’ve been in most, you know, in my creative joy, um, that’s when the anxiety and depression is the least.
But also, I almost feel like the anxiety and depression is part of the creative process because- Mm … when I feel lost and I need to look for meaning, and I genuinely open my, you know, open my scopic to… Yeah, to receive that from the world, and then I’m struck with something profound and beautiful, and then I… and then I’m like, “Oh, this is so good,” you know, that I have to write about this, or I, I feel my body moving, I need to dance to this, or whatever it may be. It’s… I think it’s the, the agony and the ache and the ecstasy and the bliss all marrying together for me, and being able to experience the world and have it move through me and not block it off.
And I think that’s the times when my creativity’s shines the brightest, is when I’m like, “I am a participant in this experience.” You know, I’m not a witness, I’m a participant. And to be able to allow, you know, relationships or nature or whatever it may be to… if for me to feel it, it’s like this is really sad for me, and, you know, then, then to allow that to move through my body and then have a, you know, little highlight of, of colour come through in another direction.
And to have all of those experiences move through my body, I can’t not create from that anymore. Like, I… For a long time it was like, this is too much to hold, and I allowed the anxiety and depression to, like, hold me captive. And now I’m like, “No, I need to move this through.” E- E- Even if it’s, you know, an uglier piece or it’s a darker piece or it’s whatever it may be that’s coming through me.
Even if it’s, like, rage dancing into System of a Down, you know? It’s like if I, if I can feel it in my body, I need to be able to, to move through it and express it, and to have that, yeah, a genuine expression of what I’m feeling.
Why emotional sensitivity can become creative power
Does being highly sensitive make you more creative?
I have witnessed in your writing that ability to really go there. Like, some of the things that you’ve written about just show, like, a strength and such a strong self-love as you’re experiencing some of those really difficult places. But yeah, a willingness and a fluency there. And then absolutely, like I’ve expressed to you before, an, a powerful insight that can only come from being brave enough to go into some of those depths. Yeah.
It’s, I just appreciate your writing so much. Yeah, but I don’t even know if it’s a conscious willingness to go into the depths or just m- like a muscle memory of if I don’t go there, the anxiety and depression will, will overcome me. Mm. I- I think over time it’s been like I kind of have to go here. I have to…
I, I can’t just push this under the rug. Like I c- I have to go there or it affects my entire life. Um, and you know, I’ve been in some pretty dark places during my life. Um, yeah, I, I think it’s- And, and it’s, it’s one of those beautiful paradoxes where it’s like, I don’t know if it’s because you look at so many creatives throughout time, and they, like, quite often there was very, very evident struggles with mental health at the same time.
Um, and I do wonder how much of it, and my mum used to say this all the time, it’s always the creative ones that have the, the struggles. And, you know, I’d… If that’s not a cross I want to bear, um, I don’t wanna be a victim to anything in my life. I want to be able to make lemonade wherever I can. Um, but I, I do think there’s an element i- if not like a direct, you know, like a pathology of mental health conditions, but a sensitive, like an emotional sensitivity I think, um, is required to be able to create anything.
You know, to be able to sit and think, “Oh, that, that could be, you know, pretty in this way,” or, “I can see beauty in that,” or, “I can see how I can, you know, look upon this thing in a different way and maybe create something brand new from it.” Um, I think it takes an emotional sensitivity, and I, I think a lot of the problem is we’re dampening our emotional sensitivity so much that creation isn’t, isn’t coming naturally to us.
And I think the more we can sit with the, the creative possibilities of things, the more that we can, you know, cradle those aspects of the self that do feel more sensitive. Like for me, it’s almost an act of self-care is to be creative. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I would agree. Yeah. Yeah.
Finding your authentic voice as a writer
How do you discover your unique writing voice?
And you, you’re re- you’re like not rediscovering, but you’re really starting to find your voice in writing as well, and I find it really interesting that something that I’ve…
I don’t know, yeah, I’ve always felt my voice is quite, it’s quite, um, arrogant in ways in my writing. It’s, well, I just feel like I’m like, “I wanna write it this way.” It’s like, “No, I’m coming through this way.” Like, when I was writing my book, I’m like, “I wanna write a non-fiction book.” No, I’m going to be fiction.
Like, it’s like I d- I don’t really have a choice. But something that’s intriguing and I love watching and I’d love to know more about the energetic process for you of, like, discovering your voice. Like, how are you going about that, and what sort of feedbacks do you get from that, and how do you dance with that?
I, um, you nailed it in a conversation that we had, I don’t know, what, six or seven or eight or nine months ago now. And you, you were like, “When you’re picking the word, you’ll, you can feel it in your body.” And I was like, “Whoa,” because that’s exactly what’s happening. And so it’s about, for me I, I s- I l- love stuff.
Like, I was thinking about what really sparks creativity in me and, and that’s discovery. I love stuff. I love new stuff. I love learning new stuff. That’s, that’s another value of mine is education. I just love learning. And when I’m, when I’m learning, when I’m learning new things, I’m totally inspired. And so it’s actually what I was talking about a few minutes ago about, like, allowing those connections to sort of bubble up, and how does this relate to this other thing that I’m learning and, and connecting those things together, and I just really enjoy that process.
And so I have a lot of different ways that I create, but if we’re talking about in writing in particular, it’s, it’s finding the… I wish I spoke more languages. I just have English and, and i- finding that word that in my years, like, will do the service to the thing that I’m, that I’m addressing. And so that’s what I’m really enjoying right now, is being able to find the right word.
And, you know, you and I have used the word pristine numerous times and, and so that’s what I’m aiming for, is, like, to express myself with pristine, not necessarily clarity, but that I am, uh, that I feel that those words match the, the feeling in my body. And, um, and there’s a, there’s a, there’s a satisfaction in that.
Um, but with the, with the other things that I create, like, I’m really into not, um, making it dogmatic anymore. Like, I’m really into just believing in the creativity of the moment, the creativity of a relationship, of a phone call, of a placement, of at like how you organize your desk at home. And so yeah, I’m really about the micros right now, like just allowing the way you cook dinner and how you salt it, and how you just deviate a little bit from what you did last time you made this recipe.
Um, yeah, I’m just really enjoying simple. Um, my degree is in theatre, and so I come from doing creativity at scale. And, um, I think I just sort of swore that off when I graduated. I was like, “I’m never doing a large production again.” Like, it’s just gonna be easy and fun from now on. And, um, and that is the joy of my feng shui practice, is how, how simple solutions can be.
That’s where you know where the chi is, right? Is like, is, is the, the flow, right? And the ease and the lightness. And so that’s another feeling, um, from there. Yeah.
Feng shui and the five elements of creativity
How do the five elements influence creative flow?
I love, and the Tao, like there’s something so beautiful about surrendering to Tao that I feel like is so inherently creative. Like, it, it just, it, well, Tao, you know?
It’s, it is the force. It is the energy. It is life force and-
And I think it’s interesting because I… We’re in the same feng shui community, and, um, I’ve mentioned this to you before, but I don’t think I’ve really shared much about my process writing my book. But for many years, I had some really amazing, inspiring people like, “You need to write a book. You need to write a book.”
And it was, like, just this backlog of expectation that I found really heavy because yeah, it, it… When, when some of your, you know, m- most cherished mentors are like, “You need to write a book,” it becomes really heav- it was really heavy for me. And now I’m like, “I’m writing a book, and it has to be this thing.”
And, and it really kind of took a lot of the joy out. But then, you know, moving through Dana’s program, um, and doing the elements, and working out that I had a, like, a wood deficiency. So wood is the playful element. It’s the joy. It’s the fun. It’s the childlike, youthful spirit. And I… And so I started to play around with wood more and, and not just in my home and with feng shui, but in my heart, and in my life- Yeah.
and in my expression. And that’s when the non… I mean, sorry, that’s when the fiction stories started just f- spilling onto the page, and it was like I needed that element of play. I needed to introduce that energy, and that was obviously being blocked. Like, I’d been blocking that dao in some level for so long that once I uncorked that, it was…
Like, I wrote my book in six weeks. It’s crazy how- … when we get the energy flowing right and when we, you know, even feng shui from a practical perspective, but from a philosophical perspective as well, really shifted so much for me. So I’m just over h- like Nelle can see me, I’m like jumping up and down in my chair in excitement that she brought up the five elements. Because when you were speaking about anxiety and depression, um, you know, I have experienced those things as well. And when we were doing the… When I was learning about the elements and I applied wood to, as a remedy for all of the overthinking, that’s what it is for me.
I’m very how many planets, Nelle, do I have in Virgo? I don’t even… It’s like 24 or something. Anyway. Like every star in the sky was in Virgo that day. I mean, I don’t know how I managed it, but anyway, overthinking is my problem, and applying wood as a remedy to that is just what, what you’re talking about, is like freedom from that.
And so that’s… Yeah, just so precious to me. And yeah, it’s one of the things that I think about a lot is applying, um, those, those aspects to, to stuck energy. Um, the… And what we’re talking about is the five elements of traditional Chinese medicine philosophy, including, um, starting with water through wood, fire, earth and metal.
And they are explored in all sorts of different types of ways. Like, they’re explored in really, um… well, obviously traditional Chinese medicine, so physicality. In feng shui it can also be applied to space. Um, it’s a, it’s a creative cycle. Um, it can be applied to food and, um, my qi gong teacher uses it in a, in, in, um, you know, physical movement and there’s just so many ways to apply it.
And it just fascinates me how that cycle of creativity of the five elements can really be applied for those sorts of things, and I’ve had the same findings as you as there was stuck energy around creating, and I just applied different parts of the five elements and it just, it just turned on, like a light.
It’s such a blessing. Yeah. And I’m not saying, like, ultimate control, but there’s, um, of, of outcome, but there’s a, there’s a supportive flow. Like, there really is a natural, um… That’s not the sequence of the words I wanted to use, but there is, there is a, a dynamic of nature that you can apply like that, and it’s, it’s, it’s so…
It can be… My experience of it is that it can be quite easy. What’s your experience of it? Yeah, when I do it. Yeah.
Water, wood, fire and metal in everyday life
Which five element helps when you’re feeling stuck creatively?
Um, I can sit around for a week. We spoke about this last time. Yeah. I can sit around for a week, like, just stuck in water. Like, I’m just not- Yeah … feeling it. I need to feel it. I need to feel more. I need to just get to the meat of what I wanna express, or I can sit around in water for so long and then it’s like, “Okay, I’ve…I gotta shake this up. I need to burn some incense.” You know, like, there’s, “I need to get some fire happening here.” Yeah. “I need to put on a good song. I need to dance. Like, I need to bring some fire into this moment.” And then it’s, just happens. Like, it’s so, it’s so funny how easy it is and how big we can make things.
Um, yeah. Yep. And it, and, and I think… I definitely have a wood deficiency quite often. You know, I skew towards wood deficiency. But fire is what, it both entices me and it terrifies me at the same time because it’s so pow- for me, fire is so powerful. Mm-hmm. It is just, it’s the activated energy and it’s… That’s where my power li- you know, that’s where I find the rubber meeting the road for me as far as my creativity, like my creative expression, and being able to bring something into the world, and being able to say, you know, “This is the, the height of my self-expression. This is who I am in this very second right now.
This is who I am. This is what I’m bringing forth. This is me.” And it’s such ultimate presence for me. Like, fire demands presence. You can’t just sit back and watch fire. You know, it’s not gonna just… Straight up … sit in a well for the next 30 years. It’s, it’s fire is instant, and it happens right now. And whenever I get into that fire, yeah, it, it shifts for me so fast, um, how quickly I can create and how, how organic things feel coming through.
Hmm. That’s so cool. I have not… I think maybe I’m a little afraid of fire. I haven’t spent really a lot of time with it. Metal was the epiphany for me. Um, you know, that, that curation and those boundaries and that, um, that clarity and, and decluttering and paring things back and just that incisive clarity of metal.
Yeah. Mm. Yeah. I t- I, I think, and we’ve both got Virgo placements, I think. I think it’s very Vir- Virgo-ic is the, the metal placements. It’s like having that capacity to think things through, but I can lean towards excess of metal at times. Um, yeah, for me it’s the, the more p- the more playful and the wood and the fire particularly are, are the places where I really find myself.
When I’m activating those, that’s when, when creativity really starts happening for me. Maybe I can share, um, so Nelle was referring to our feng shui teacher, whose name is Dana Claudat. And, and so she was, um, instructing on the wood element, and she was talking about how that wood represents, like, rapid growth.
Like, the imagery for it is Bamboo. Just wood that grows straight up and is flexible in the wind, and is green in every sense. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s growing, it’s new, it’s discovering. And the importance of that in the creative cycle so that all of the other ones tie in, and I, I, I think we kind of like maybe lose that a little bit, that like, my Virgo mind wants to say, you know, just getting it wrong.
Like, just trying things, and it, that not being the finished product. And, and allowing that to incite the flow of the rest of the cycle. And, you know, fire comes after wood, and so what you’re describing about having access to such a powerful, clear, wise, and, and, um, realized part of yourself. And so, you know, buffering up and allowing the flow of the rest, and the strength of the rest of the elements, um, by also allowing play and that creativity- Mm-hmm… that we’re talking about here today. Yeah.
Your life is your greatest creative project
What does it mean to create yourself every day?
I think it’s, you know, when we’re looking at creation as an entire concept or, you know, the, the entire universe almost. But when we’re looking at creation, it’s not just art that we’re creating in the world, you know? We’re creating ourselves every day by our choices.
And even being stuck in some of those, for a very long time I was stuck in some of those, like definitely get stuck in metal and water. For me, that’s where I, if I’m stuck, I’m, could almost guarantee that’s where it is. Mm-hmm. Um, being able to make choices that are expansive and, and creating a new sense of me and a new sense of vigour in my life and a new sense of joy, and to be able to create those experiences within ourselves, we do need to lean into this creation cycle.
Because without it, we’re just making the same choices over and over again, or we’re only really operating from a sense of exploration that is created from a map that we’ve, we’ve been traversing for the last 20 years. Like, w- to be able to be fully open to creation and to sit and say, “You know what? Make me anew.”
You know? Like, make me anew, and make me, um, my own creation, my own art. Our entire life can be art that way, rather than this is my space for life, and then my art is some little pretty affair on the side. Uh, no, our entire life is art. Our entire being, our entire evolution. It is all art and creation- I, I really didn’t mean to come here and talk about my business, but that’s like eudaimonia, right?
Like, that’s… So I’ve named my business Euda by Jessie, and Euda is short for eudaimonia, which is a ancient Greek philosophical term for living a full life, and not for specific outcomes, but because life is full. And so anyway, and so, like, this is just my way of, like, banging on the horn and being like, “Yeah, Nelle, go, go, go,” because th- that’s, that’s the direction, that’s, that’s the umbrella of, of my business.
And that’s, again, my value is just to say, like, all of it matters. Yeah. How you, how you get out of bed in the morning, how you open your drapes, how you brush your teeth. Like, it’s, it’s your, it’s your life, it’s your choice, and you can… Even, even those acts, I do believe, of self-care are, are creative, and, and the choices that we get to make.
And that’s sort of why I started talking about Einstein and all that off the top is I believe that that sort of philosophy of, like, we can’t understand science, we can’t understand art anymore, started to create this little bit of being at effect of the world around us instead of being the cause of the world around us, and choosing the things.
And, and so to me, that’s the tie-in, is the difference between, uh, life is just happening, or no, these are all things that help me realize fully who I am and see myself in the world in the way that, that I want to. And I just really firmly believe it’s in the little things. It’s in the little sparks, um, in your day.
And I think that’s the best news. Like, it doesn’t take much to, to create and to… Yeah, and so that’s why I really don’t want it to be, like, dogmatic and far away and big, but to bring it home and to feel it personally. So within that, I think, is the connection to self, is that’s what we’re expressing at the end of the day.
And so it, it’s gotta be in small parts. Um, it’s not always just waiting for the big thing to happen, but for the, the little things are important as well.
Creativity in menopause
Why do so many women crave creativity during perimenopause?
I just firmly believe that And I can say, like, here at midlife or for me, like, I think it was probably… Now that I look back, it was probably the first symptoms of perimenopause is now I had these insatiable cravings to create.
I just needed… I wanted to make quilts. I wanted to make… I wanted colours to come out of my hands. I wanted to do watercolour. I wanted to felt. Like, I just needed really hands-on, and they were these deep cravings, and I couldn’t, I couldn’t get around them. I had to go and get the supplies, like, and, like, sit down and make it happen.
And so that… It, it was, it was like water. Like, I was thirsty, like water. Like, I n- I need this, or I don’t know what’s gonna happen. And I just think it’s part of our, I feel like this is like cliche to say a little bit, but human experience. Mm. And being human is like really important right now. It’s really important I think, I think, and I can’t be certain, but I’ve w- when you’re saying this, that craving, I think as our estrogen begins to diminish and we’re, we’re not, you know, getting our sense of self-worth from what we do for other people- Mm
it’s like, “Well, well, how do I get meaning from the world now when it’s not just about looking after somebody else or volunteering for the…” You know, how do I get meaning from the world now, and what do, what, what would that look like for me in a really honest and authentic and congruent way? Rather than when we’re at school and it’s like, well, this is the art class and this is the lessons that they give.
And it’s like, well, I’m obviously not an artist, am I? Because that’s not, I don’t, I’m not a painter. I can’t draw, um, so I’m obviously not an artist. But now to be able to go, “Oh, sourdough, yes.” You know, like being able to go what, what are the things that, what can I create? And it, it really doesn’t have to…
And I, I think it’s so beautiful that you say this. It really doesn’t have to be big. Like yes, as, you know, I could write a sonnet. You know, I could write something that shows how deeply meaningful someone is to me, or I could just make them a toasted sandwich and put a little extra, like, thyme on there or something.
You know, like, it’s those tiny little tweaks that we can make throughout the day. It’s like, “This is how I feel about you today.” And, and I, I think it’s a really beautiful thing. I think it’s a, it is an act of self-expression, but I also feel like all art comes from a, a place of relational expression as well.
Mm. It’s like who am I right now in this moment in relation to this thing that I’m considering, and what does that bring through for me? Mm. Think of that. That’s so exciting.
Writing as prayer instead of productivity
What does it mean to treat writing as a spiritual practice?
And so, and I’m just realising how pretty much all of my work is around myself. But I, I don’t know A lot of, I, like we’ve discussed this before, a lot of my writing, I feel like it’s very lonely. Like, I’m just talking about myself a lot. But I think it’s myself in rela- like h- what my experiences and relationships have evoked from me over, over the years is, is how it comes through.
When you’re, if I may, if you’re, when you’re dealing with something with that depth, I think you have to talk from your own experience, right? Like, I don’t know that we can know somebody else’s experience, uh, uh, to that depth, and that is really where you go. Hmm. Yeah, and I think that’s part of that, you know, that experience of finding the right word in my body is like, well, this is the only words I can use for this thing right now.
Hmm. When I’m being present with my body, it’s like, well, this is the word that just needs to come through. Um, yeah, I think it’s being in service to, to the creative forces that flood through us sometimes. I still think about that. That isn’t yet how I experience it, but I get it. Like, yeah, it, it… When you say that, it makes sense to me.
I’m not sure. For me, it feels like, um, uh, there’s steam, you know, and you gotta let the, let the top off- Mm-hmm … so that it doesn’t get… so it doesn’t explode. Like, I mean, it’s a, it’s an outlet is the word I’m looking for. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I s- yeah. I’m trying to think. I have had times where it’s like that, but for me it’s more if there’s this definite sanctity to it. It’s akin to prayer, it’s akin to meditation. Okay. For me that I, I’m swept with such a sense of calm when I’m writing, and flow and peace, and dance is an outlet, but writing- Mm… is an active prayer. No, thank you for saying that. I’m gonna try that.
I don’t know try. I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know. Is this good advice?” I don’t know of trying. I just, that’s just how it is for me, and I don’t wanna, like, seed anyone else’s experience. Like, this is how it has to be done because it is… I think it’s so personal for everyone. And if that’s your outlet, that’s great.
Like- Mm-hmm … people seek their whole lives for an outlet that really satisfies them. So I don’t wanna seed your experience, but that is how it is for me. No, I’m definitely not receiving it as instruction. Like, I was hearing you say, I heard you say, like, prayer, and I was like, “Whoa, I have not thought of writing in that way.”
And so I would like to try it in that- Mm … uh, with that intention. That’ll be interesting to see what, what changes. And so I just wanna thank you very much for that, that frame. Yeah. Mm. Your curiosity’s bubbling. I can see your- Exactly … your eyes are like, “Oh, I could play with that. We could- Exactly. And that-
we could get some wood in.” … that’s why I love listening to other people’s experiences and, and what creativity and eudaimonia and, and it sparks for other people because there’s just so many ways, so many colours, so many possibilities. And, um, and I just, uh, uh, I love that. There’s so many exciting things going on.
And when you listen to others and their experience of things and, and how they do it. And I don’t know that we always talk directly about creativity. We, uh, in my experience, sort of tend to talk more about what we’re creating and, and not the process. And so it is, um, it’s hard to pin down, isn’t it? It is water, isn’t it?
It’s, it’s, um, it’s still moving. It’s still creating, and it’s going into places we can’t see yet. And, um, y- yeah, I mean, it’s, this is, uh, gonna be a really powerful ongoing consideration, I think. I like having this, uh, thinking about it as its own house, its own, its own… with its own foundations and its own thing that it needs to attend to outside of the projects that come from it.
Feminine and masculine phases of creativity
Why is receiving inspiration different from making something?
Yeah. A few years ago, I don’t know if you remember, I had a programme called Imaginaire, and it was very much about the ima- like, the ideation process of creation. Um- And that, yeah, that was a completely separate… Like, the, the creation is very much productivity, but the, the ideation is the meaning, I think.
That’s when we get the meaning from is, like, and we’re searching for those, those little ideas or the concepts that satisfy something within us enough for us to then feel fueled to create from that. And I think- Mm-hmm … they’re two very, very separate experiences. You can ideate forever and never create something.
You know? I think they’re very s- one’s very feminine, one’s very masculine. Um, but I think… A- and I think after us discussing the five elements, I think it is really important to perhaps distil it back down also to, to the m- the polarities of masculine and feminine as well, because there is two very distinct phases.
And, and I think we don’t, as a society, give enough credence to the feminine aspect of being able to sit and, you know, be still for long enough to consider something or to have, allow ideas to drop in. To be receptive and to allow those ideas to drop in, to allow those, um, the inspiration to flood us. And I p- like, me, myself, when I’m in that creation phase and I’m like, “Oh, I’m flowing.
This is all r-,” you know? A, a couple of months ago, I was like, “I just had the most amazing two weeks. I’ve created all this,” blah, blah, blah. You know? It was like… And then afterwards, I’m like, “Oh, I, I, it was so effortless for me. Why can’t I just get back into that phase?” Like, and I, I really was putting a lot of pressure on myself to get back into just prolific creation.
But the feminine aspect is so important, to be able to s- be still and receive and be open to inspiration. I think that’s where society has kind of led us astray.
Creative rhythms, deadlines and replenishment
How do you know when your creative battery needs recharging?
I’m watching, again, like I think a generation younger than mine, you know, some really high visibility musicians and stuff say like, “I can’t create on this schedule.” Like, the real inspiration comes from what, you know, you’re talking about. And, and that doesn’t just appear on the calendar when you want it to.
And so really saying like to create authentically from myself and know the things that I wanna say, and like what I want it to look like, like I guess I’m gonna have to publish independently ’cause I, like I g- I gotta do it that way. And, ugh, it’s… I- and, and some people… Like you’ve heard people say like, “Deadlines are the best thing that have ever happened to my creativity.”
You know what I mean? And so it’s, it’s just really, really individual. But what I’m digging right now is I can feel the difference between the battery getting filled up and the battery being depleted. Mm-hmm. And so it’s the creation doing one or the other, and then there’s the, um, e- even if it, it… Like you said, like if it, if you can get prolific and you’re like, and snapping away and it’s all happening, then to honour that, like that needs its own respect, and like that, that is a well that needs replenishing as well.
And yeah, just it, it fascinates me to think, like these people that like, like Stephen King, like how many books? Mm. And what’s that creative process look like? And I’m just, but I’m not in a place to think that one’s better than the other. Yeah. Because like I was saying, like I believe in the micro, like the little things.
And so even a per- if a person writes no books, they’re still creating. Yeah. And I just, I feel very firmly about that. And th- and that they have a creation that’s, um, worth understanding and, and, um, and has insight to it as well, and their own decisions, and their own… It’s, its tapestry. It’s woven. Mm-hmm. I think the deadline thing for me, writing my book, getting that deadline was- It was helpful.
Like, the constraint did help me, absolutely. Um- Mm-hmm … but it wasn’t… A- and I’ve tried to impose deadlines on myself and they don’t work. So I feel like- Mm-hmm … there’s, there’s definitely an emotionality that has to be respected within it as well, because when I had that deadline, I was so… Like, I’m like, “Yes, I’m writing fiction.”
Like, it was just a whole different energe- energy of excitement, and I was ready for it. Um, but yeah, my beautiful other half the other day said something, “You can’t white-knuckle creativity.” Yeah. And I think that’s the problem, is, like, when the deadline becomes a monster that’s looming, that’s when it really becomes the… You know, that’s the antithesis of creation. Then it, then it sort of just becomes a compression of experience rather than this beautiful flourishing growth of exploration and curiosity. It’s that fire element, the difference between it burning brightly and it, and it singeing. Yeah. And so holding something as powerful as a fire element with respect And then we need different things for different projects.
Oh gosh, I mean the … the variations are endless, right? But, um, yeah, and some projects need that and others really are adverse to it. And like, w- I think as creatives we’re aware that like we’re, we won’t even know till we get there, and the body kind of knows, doesn’t it? Like, the body’s saying like, “More rest, more water-” Mm “more quiet,” or like, surprise yourself and like, you know, drive 120 kilometres an hour down the highway.
With a cigarette listening to, um, I don’t know, Guns N’ Roses or something. Like, that’s a creative space sometimes, you know? Totally. I, yeah. And just your- Your openness to bring that to the table, I love it so much. I think, yeah, I love, yeah. Yeah. I have to go- Sometimes it is you have to bring in the real left field th- things sometimes to get, get the juices flowing again, doesn’t it?
Full disclosure, I have not used that for creativity since, for decades. But it’s there- But- … if you need it. Yeah. But yeah, exactly. Sometimes you just gotta snap out of it, right? And like I said earlier, like prone to overthinking, and so sometimes just like, yeah, something so fresh, so something so unexpected just to, just to get some, get some space from the overthinking.
The artistry of midlife transformation
How can creativity help you navigate change in midlife?
Yeah. I, I love that this, I know this has been very much about creation and art and, um, you know, the creative process, but I love that this discussion’s been more broadly about opening our minds and our lives and our hearts up to a different way of being and navigating our lives in completely different ways, and being open to change, which I think is probably, well, in all of my clients, my, my experience personally, I think change is, and they call it the change, you know?
I think that’s- Right … that’s the hardest part of going through these midlife transitions, is the change and what that means and what that has to look like. And I think so often we can become very set and, and almost victims of that experience. Like, “Oh, now I have to change.” And I think the thing with creation- Mm and art is like, “Oh, how can I change this?” Like, “What can I do to shake this up? How can I make this more exciting?” Um- Mm-hmm … and I think that that’s, that’s the artistry of midlife, which is something that I really find dear to my heart, is the artistry of midlife. It’s not, “I’m a victim of these circumstances.”
It’s like, “Oof, okay, this thing’s happened. This was not how I wanted this to go.” Like all of these things have lined up in a completely different way or not even lined up, you know? There’s, there’s no line whatsoever. How do I make this something really, really remarkable? And, and it’s there. Like it’s just, it just takes opening our minds, opening our hearts, opening our, our experience to be able to make those things into something glorious.
I love that. Yeah, I, I think that’s, I think that’s one of the reasons why I’m so in, in love with it is because of that difference between feeling like you are at cause in your life or at effect. And there is a lot of things right now that we are at effect of. There’s a lot, uh, going on whatever direction you look, and I think that’s why it’s so personally important to me right now is to be like that onus of control, what I have control over, and here’s the things I can have cause over.
And I just strongly feel that creativity allows us access to our perspective and to learn things about ourselves, and, uh, that also makes room t- like, for understanding that there are lots of different perspectives and, um, different ways to, to share and to perceive. And I just find those conversations so life-giving, life-affirming.
And yeah, I just believe we can’t, we can’t separate it from ourselves. That’s what I firmly believe. Mm. And I don’t think we want to, you know? It’s- Like, we’re here to be sovereign, and we’re here to be agents of our own fulfilment really. Like, imagine if it was just given to you. That, that was, you know, Buddha’s…
He was in a castle, and it was beautiful, and he had everything available to him whatsoever, so he went and rejected all of that and sat under a tree. Um, I feel like it’s, it’s… That is the, the meat. That is, that’s what we’re here for, is to be able to be grand creators in our own existence instead of sitting back and being like, “Well, I’ve got this, I’ve got this, I’ve got this.
How do I just sort of tether these things together and get by?” It’s like, no, we, we get to be the grand creators, and it’s so fascinating when you start to make those shifts about being a creator of your own, you know, your art- your life being art. When we start to make those shifts in the tiny ways, like just how we make a sandwich or just how we, um, tend to our garden or how we dance in the shopping centre, you know, things like that, you begin to notice the bigger things actually start to shift, too.
Mm. Yeah. And we are, we’re not alone. We’re not separate. Everything is entangled. Everything is part of this oneness, and it really just starts with having this, this philosophy of me as creator, me as, me as the artist of my life. Um, and everything ripples from there. Oh, my gosh. I’m getting choked up. It’s so beautiful, though.
I- it’s something that I’ve profoundly found in my life, those times when I’m in great creation. The world then does seem to be a , much less hostile place. Mm. Mm-hmm. I think that, yeah, I… You’re just gonna get me agreeing more. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I’m just… Yeah. That’s, that’s what I have to offer is, is just agreeing more with, with that.
Creating from alignment instead of ego
What does aligned creativity actually feel like?
I’m gonna spend some time, um, thinking of, like… I’ve been playing with being in alignment and out of alignment. Let’s just put it like that. And so playing with the idea of When I’m in alignment and I can feel that from a creative perspective, from writing, from business relationships, are things shifting on the outside? Or am I just receiving it from a different frame of mind? I think in my experience of it, it’s that I’m, I’m, I’m pulled back and I’m like aware now of the bigger picture.
You know? It’s not… You said it so well, um, a couple times ago when we were talking. You were talking about it- when it’s conditional. You know, when, when the, the blessings that we receive are, feel conditional sometimes.
Um, so it’s interesting when we take ourselves out of ourselves and look into, you know, become the observer uni- of the universe, versus just looking through our own two eyes and w- making it a very self-centric existence. I think that at that point when we hop out of that, hop, hop out of ourselves and into the greater expanse of Earth is, like, the greater expanse of the entire universe, multiverse, whatever it might be.
Mm. Have you got an experience of, in your mind, of like creating from that place versus like the s- the smaller, more fussy, detail-oriented place? And like, do you, do you create from bro- both, and do you have, um, an experience of both to share? I think, and I think it was what I was saying about writing before.
For me, it’s a prayer. I am coming from… And it’s y- it’s still being filtered through my body and through my human experience, but the place I go to is very much removed from ego and Criticism, yeah, it’s very much just… I mean, a stream It’s flooding through me, um, and I just have to pick the words, the perfect word where it, where, where I feel it in my body, go to the little library, like my cells feel like libraries of words. And I just have- Wow … to move my body in a certain way, and it’s like, “Oh, that’s where that word is.
That’s what it is.” And, and then I just place it, but it’s very much removed from… And it’s so, it’s so wacky to say because I write about me, but it’s not- Mm … yeah, I, I can’t describe what it is because I wouldn’t… If I was consciously thinking, and I’ve shared this with you before, I’m like, “Vulnerability hangover. What I just shared, like, I can’t believe I wrote that. I can’t believe I sent that out.”
Like, sometimes my critical mind, the- I would never write half the stuff I wrote if I didn’t get into that channel. Great. And have you created from the not that? Yeah. When I was doing, like, academic writing, and I hate, I can’t do it, and like, ugh. I, I worked for a supplements company for a long time. They did a lot of research, like, groundbreaking research.
It was fun to be a part of, but they were like, “Will you write for us?” And I was like, “Okay, I’m a writer, so that’s what I have to do.” Hated it so much. It was not for me. It was just… Yeah, it was too cephalic.
Mm. To totally… Isn’t it interesting? Like, to the casual observer, she’s doing the exact same thing at her desk, and they’re worlds apart. Yeah. And no, it’s not the casual observer. I do, uh, co-working session with one of my friends sometimes. And she laughs at me ’cause she’s like, “I can tell when you’re writing ’cause you move your body around.”
And I’m like, “I’m just looking for the words. Like, that’s, that’s where they are for me.” That’s so cool. Libraries, that’s so cool. Yeah, definitely like a library ex- Like, I just have to find… And it’s like, oh no, not, not that, you know? That’s the wrong R word. There’s one right near it, you know? It’s even, like, sometimes they’re even so alphabetically linked or, you know, texturally linked, and it’s like, no, it’s not that texture.
It’s a different texture. You gotta move a little bit to the side and… Yes. Yeah. It’s… I’m fascinated by how it shows up, because this is not what I’ve learnt from life. These, this experience that I have is not something that I’ve ever learnt from a book. Yeah. And it’s fascinating to me to now be in a place where I can fully open to my creativity and be like, oh wow, that’s, that’s cool.
Like, how does that work? Yeah, and I’m fascinated by it because I think your writing is profound. And so, yeah, it, it, I, it feels as though it’s not something that you have, that you’ve arrived at very individually, ’cause I’ve never seen anything like it. And, and that you’re really responding in the moment to y- to your, uh, inspiration.
And yeah, that it’s not something that you got in grade three, like, or at a university class, yeah. And, and then from that comes, like I’ve shared with you before, learning and insight. Um, because I don’t know that everybody goes where you go. And so, yeah, your process is, is so interesting to listen to. Mm.
But I don’t think everyone’s meant to go where I go too. Like, this… Or who is it? Oasis. Um, many years ago there was this- An interviewer asked one of the Gallagher brothers, like, what… Those lyrics were so deep. Like, one of their songs had some really beautiful lyrics, and they’re like, “That song is, you know, what does it mean?
It’s so profound.” And Liam or Noel, whoever it was, said, “It’s, it’s just not that deep, man.” Like, like, it’s like how those words sound together. I’m like- Yeah … “That’s cool, though.” You’re like, sometimes it’s just words sound good together, so you just put them together. Sometimes it really is, like, a, this harrowing experience that you’ve been through that needs to be expressed, but sometimes it’s just like, those j- those words sound really cool.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and space for all that. Yes.
Final reflections on living creatively
How can you become the artist of your own life?
Jess, we, we could talk… I, I reckon we should do a, um, a world record att- … attempt at some stage. How long can we, how long can two humans not do small talk for? Like, I think it would be worthy of attempting. That’s hilarious. I love that. And also, I am mindful of our listeners’ time, but, um, gosh, I love hanging out with you so, so much.
Like, just constant sparking of new ideas and new concepts and new ways of being, and you’re s- just so grounding for me. I think it’s your s- your Virgo sun just, like, anchors me back down into Earth, and I’m so grateful for every moment we get to hang out together. And, um, once again, I’d love you to share with the listeners where they can find you in the world.
Um, yeah. Okay, all that. Coming back to Earth. All right. Yeah. You got it. Yeah. No worries. Um, tha- thank you, thank you so much for, for your kind words. It is, uh, it is an honour to explore these unexplored places, so thank you very much for this kind invitation. Um, I am at www.cozyjess.com. And I’m in Canada, so you spell the, the cozy with a Z.
And that’s where I talk about eudaimonia, and, um, I’m interested in the small creative things we can do every day to feel like we’re living a fulfilled life. And so that’s what I’m up to over in my corner. And yeah, just so, so grateful to be invited to this conversation, Nelle. Thank you so much. Aw. Thank you for being a part of it.
And yeah, your, your way of orienting yourself in the world definitely lends to these beautiful types of conversations. Like, it’s just such an honour to sit with somebody who has a general, like… sorry, a genuine awe for life. It’s so beautiful to witness. So thank you so much, Jess, and we’ll be back again sometime soon.
I love having you here with me, and, um, thank you so much. We’ll talk soon. We’re… I l- I am inspired now. Like, let’s go for the non-small talk champions. I think it’s worth a try. I love that. You have a beautiful day, darling. Thank you so much. You too. Thank you. Thank you for sitting with us today. It has been an absolute joy. If you’d like to work with me or connect with any one of our beautiful guests, you can find everything at perimoon.com.au. And until next time, may you find yourself all the way alive.
